New ambulance costs $260K and must negotiate all kinds of terrain
Presenting to the Joint Capital Planning Committee his $442,250 total capital budget request this morning Amherst Fire Department Chief Tim Nelson assumed a somber tone we he got to the next-to-the-last item on the list: "Never in my life would I ever expect to ask for this ... but we live in a different world now."
Assistant Chiefs McKay and Stromgren (left & right) Chief Nelson (center)
The $17,500 item(s) he was requesting?
Ten bullet proof vests and helmets, one each for two ambulance personnel in all five AFD ambulances. And yes this request was in the pipeline long before the recent weapon incident that sent UMass into lockdown.
But that incident certainly reinforced the sobering notion expressed by Chief Nelson that "It's going to happen here."
Assistant Chief McKay told the Committee that AFD has been training active shooter scenarios with UMass PD since 2002 (after Columbine) and since 2006 with APD.
These days protocols have changed somewhat in that rather than keeping FD in a "cold zone" where they are safe and protected until police have secured the area, the current idea is for PD to make a "dynamic entry" and clear part of a building so FD can then move in and stage in that "warm zone".
Because obviously the quicker medical experts can get to a victim the more likely they can do something to save a life. But yes, at risk to their own lives.
The bullet proof vests would stay in the ambulance so they will get way less use than the ones worn by police officers daily, thus this request for 10 vests should be good for twenty years or more.
Our other equally vital public safety department, APD, had only two requests, both somewhat big ticket items totaling $315,000. The usual request for four new vehicles -- Ford utility Interceptors at $35,000 each -- and new portable radios for the entire department.
Chief Livingstone (left) Captain Pronovost (right)
The front line patrol vehicles are run 24/7 with plenty of stop and go under all sorts of negative circumstances. Next year (FY18) they will replace three cruisers but the price is going up about $5,000 per vehicle. While the radios are all over 20 years old so parts are hard to come by.
The last thing you want is for an officer responding to a life-and-death emergency being slowed by a vehicle break down. And officer safety is compromised if their hand held radio should fail when they are in the field.
Our public safety departments -- Police, Fire and Dispatch -- cost $10 million in total operation budgets this year so these two department requests of $757,250 works out to under 8% of total budget.
Currently the Joint Capital Planning Committee uses 8% of the town's total budget for capital equipment/building/facilities spending, or $3.15 million. Requests from all departments total $3.34 million, so cuts will have to be made.
Hopefully not from Police or Fire.
Masslive catches up to this story (Can the Gazette be far behind?)
$1,750 per vest sounds very high.
ReplyDeleteROCKINGHAM COUNTY, N.C. -- Thirty bulletproof vests will soon be placed on Rockingham County EMS ambulances to protect EMTs and paramedics from the unexpected when out in the field.
Officials have been working on getting the vests for a year and used $10,500 from a state grant to pay for them.
I found many appropriately rated vests from many different sources in the $400-500 range in about thirty seconds. Seriously, what am I missing.
I believe helmets are also included.
ReplyDeleteWhen Command sends EMS into the open during an active shooter situation, to retrieve a bullet-riddled body, is there any kind of a "bullet-proof" blanket" that goes over the victim right away? I've seen that some school districts have purchased bullet proof blankets. If an EMS member's presence could very well draw more fire, it would make sense to consider buying those first, in the event that the other person on the ground and in the line of fire is a little girl.
ReplyDeleteDo we own anything like that now--something that protects victims from more bullets--for in case of a mass shooting where an EMS has to run into the field to save kids, he could throw it over them first thing?
If an increase in mass shootings is their justification for this expenditure, shouldn't we spend the money on bullet-proof blankets for kids and teachers, not the EMS technicians, who will be far away when a situation occurs, and who will probably be ordered to stay well out of the way of bullets and SWAT activity?
Did any of our Amherst officials look into state grants to fund the vests and helmets, like officials in North Carolina did? When did officials in Amherst start working on getting the vests?
ReplyDeleteThe logic behind spending the money on vests rather than blankets stems from a goal of stocking the department and the ambulances with equipment, and probably is a result of one or more requests from one or more of our ambulance drivers, and does not stem from actual scenario considerations, or considering who we would choose to protect in those scenarios.
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone know if there have been formal requests from town employees for the vests?
Are the vests one size fits all?
ReplyDeleteWe really do need to look more closely at each line item on the AFD and APD budgets. I have no one to blame but myself for not making myself more aware, but our system is designed on institutionalized checks and balances, and I feel under-informed, because checks and balances are lacking within these departments and town-wide in some ways compared to others. Also, checks and balances that traditionally exist as a result of normal capitalistic enterprise, and constitutional commitment, (journalism and "the news"), is depleted in this town, and has not traditionally reported fully on the finance aspects or challenged the status quo through editorials within these departments anyway.
ReplyDeleteWhy doesn't the general public in this town get more involved at meetings where we are allowed to ask department heads questions about their finance decisions, (or personnel or policy decisions for that matter,) or voice opposing opinions? Why don't we have more opportunities to express opinions publicly directly to these department heads? Would once a month for a couple of hours be too much to ask for them to make themselves available on live Amherst Media, so the community can show up to voice concerns, ideas, and opinions?
The vests will always stay in the ambulance except in the case of an emergency where an active shooter is involved, we understand that, (which is important because just like the presence of bullet-propellers, men in bullet armor will often escalate the behavior and motivations of a shooter rather than de-escalate,) but I'm wondering if vests will be assigned to personnel, like a piece of equipment is issued a law officer, so it will be marked with a name or other identifying mark? Anyone can buy a fully rated vest online that says EMT in bold letters on it, and I wonder if our cops would be able to differentiate anyone else in one of those from one of our town employees in an active shooter situation? Do we practice that specifically?
ReplyDeleteWhile it's probably a good idea in the end, particularly if coupled with some other purchases and a good plan, this proposal for bullet proof vests for EMS drivers sounds half-baked, under-researched in terms of costs, and ought to have included community input including presentations regarding the justification or rejection of the expenditure vs. others that serve a greater purpose, from the many community members who are qualified to speak on it.
I believe that if you want to have a bullet proof vest with you while your employed at your tax-payer supported occupation, whether you're a teacher or an ambulance driver or a postal employee, you should go to Amazon.com and shell out the couple or three hundred bucks yourself for a fully rated vest that says EMT on it, rather than make the government and a whole town spend 17K+ now, and I'm sure more when they "wear out".
ReplyDeleteLaughing at "Ambulance drivers"... do they drive the ambulance to the scene and sit in the drives seat waiting for the medic to come back with the patient then drive to the hospital, or are they medics too...
ReplyDeleteSomeone should go on Shark Tank with this concept: Bullet proof bags, they zip from the inside, fit ten kids each, fold away in a drawer in the classroom. Someone could make millions on that. Or for that matter personal bullet-proof body bags that fit in your back pack.
ReplyDeleteYou'd think demand would have initiated that kind of a product to the market by now.
Medics, cops, and FD were hardly in any danger in Newtown, or any other mass shooting for that matter.
ReplyDeleteMy vote would be to reallocate the $17,500 for ten bullet proof vests and helmets and buy as many bullet proof blankets for the preschool as we need.
Anons can't vote.
ReplyDeleteCould someone with some experience/training/degree explain this to me?
ReplyDeleteIf we can easily train an EMT to run into a hostile field where people have been shot and an active shooter may still be present, to attend to the fallen, doesn't it make more sense to have the EMT's sit back under cover, and train and supply the cops or some other tactical squad with the same medical knowledge EMT's receive, who are wearing vests and more anyway, and send them in? Isn't that a lot safer for everyone for a whole lot of reasons?
Thank You.
"Anons can't vote."
ReplyDeleteActually, they can, proper polling places have private booths.
But you have to identify yourself. Twice.
ReplyDeleteI hope the AFD chief gets his ballistic equipment. Let us remembered these vest have a shelf life and will need to be replaced down the road.
ReplyDeleteThe entire radio system is outdated and tired. The town needs to upgrade the entire system in my book.
I hope both AFD and APD get what they need but with my home town I never hold my breath when it comes to funding public safety.
It is still common protocol for EMS crews to stage until the scene is safe/secured.
ReplyDeleteJeremie
PS I wonder if UMPD and/or APD have a tactical team/SWAT/SRT? If so I would hope AFD had some paramedics trained as tactical EMS.
Ambulance Drivers? No EMS Crew, Ambulance Crew, EMT's, Paramedics there have not ben ambulance drivers for well over 30 years.
ReplyDeleteBlankets cost more than vest and helmets and ware heavy to carry.
ReplyDeleteDenial about reality and failure to prepare makes us ripe for tragedy.
ReplyDeleteWell I don't know, I still say that if we're going to base an expenditure like this on recent mass shootings, and the realities of what has occurred during those incidents, we should start with decisions that:
ReplyDeletea) directly benefit the the tax-payers as opposed to employees from out of town who can buy their own vests;
b) provide armament to the most targeted and most vulnerable in our communities to the highest degree possible first: first to pre-school, then maybe to local social service centers and medical facilities that offer pregnancy counseling, maybe retirement homes next and then of course town hall and school offices... but definitely the big guys that are supported by the government and our taxes who are EMT's, somewhere later than those.
The trend over the last several years, that permeates all states and most towns, to provide mostly male, mostly white, mostly conservative-leaning, mostly products of government military training, personnel, with more and more military surplus, anti-ballistic equipment, dogs with bullet proof vests trained to obey only the command of their mostly white government supported handlers, tear gas rifles and even military grade tear gas, tanks and sniper rifles, that only they have access to... concerns me deeply.
And the trend more recently is that this culture of gearing up for conflict is permeating public safety departments and personnel who are similar demographically, with similar equipment, that only they have access to. Often these FD and EMT staffers are aligned socially and politically with each other, and their above and beyond unequivocal support for each other has been on display publicly often, derisive and aggressive non-support against political opponents just as often. And the legislation that takes all the stuff away from the average citizens who need real protection keeps adding up.
What happens after they elect Trump and become really emboldened?
My aunt was only about 7 years old when armed to the teeth German police invaded her town and shot her mother and jailed her father for being Polish. So yeah denial about reality--and I'll throw in their denial about very recent history--and failure to prepare makes us ripe for tragedy.
Us vs. them, eh. What do you mean "when They elct Trump?" You mean "we," don't you? And you're intimating that Nazism will take hold?
DeleteBut you have to identify yourself. Twice.
ReplyDeleteSure, but votes are anonymous if you choose, to protect those with dissenting opinions from retaliation from those in power. Sort of like your blog sometimes.
On top of their unequivocal support for each other, in other places on line some people from Amherst deify anyone involved in public safety, voicing the opinion "Give them whatever they want, because they're brave, and their safety is of the utmost importance." It's flawed logic when it comes to decisions around finance and purchasing, to not consider actual scenarios and who will be affected, but it's also a scary vestige of the 9/11 type of thinking that lead to disastrous foreign policy, and domestic and national security decisions, during the first part of the century, and emboldened service members to commit almost unspeakable acts of inhumanity and cruelty (eg Abu Grhaib) that are still having the effect of making us less safe today.
ReplyDeleteObama's gutless policies are what has made us less safe.
DeleteBullet resistant vests -- and even if it resists (stops) the round, that's like a tree stopping a car, the person wearing the vest absorbs the kinetic energy. A .30-06 rifle round (common deer-hunting bullet used for example) has 2000 ft/lbs of energy at 200 yards, it leaves the gun with 3000!
ReplyDeleteSo your chest absorbs enough energy to lift A TON a foot off the ground. It's similar to what someone neither wearing a seat belt nor with an airbag goes into the steering wheel in an accident...
And who says the perp won't be aiming for the head?
Personally, I think this is all asinine paranoia. And possibly illegal -- there are Mass laws prohibiting FF from having LEO functions. For a reason -- and wouldn't it make more sense to give the cops EMT training, which they might actually use.
Folks, you are more likely to have a school bus roll over, and cops with some basic medical knowledge will save lives.
And reality is that any EMS in an active shooter situation is gonna be "Scoop & Run" anyway. Think about it for a minute....
ReplyDeleteWhenever there's a bomb scare at the h.s., or some other threat, even involving guns, the photos always show several cops standing around in bullet proof vests, they go ointo the schools with their vests on, and often they are standing near or with a woman who is entirely unprotected. If that were me, in a scary and dangerous situation like that, my first instinct would be to pull off my vest and give it to the lady there who they're conferring with about what to do, and who has no protection. But of course I'm known as the consummate gentleman.
ReplyDeleteConsummate sexist. Lol. J/k
DeleteParanoia....
ReplyDeleteKinda makes the "duck & cover" of the 1950's look realistic.
I've heard people who are most offended that an anon did not confer more prestigious titles to safety personnel (my apologies for not knowing your titles.) I've heard people say "they hope they get their armor". I've heard people say that "blankets to throw over victims would be too heavy, and too expensive". And I've heard that some think anyone who doesn't support the logic behind the expenditure is in denial about what threats are imminent. But I have not heard a convincing argument that this expenditure is justified by any data or anecdotal evidence that suggest public safety is increased during a mass shooting event, by paying for very expensive vests for EMS Crew, Ambulance Crew, EMT's, and Paramedics, rather than ask people to be individually responsible for their own personal safety, and buy their own armor.
ReplyDeleteI don't support supplying 17,500 worth of vests, with a plan to replace them at increased costs every five years or so of non-use, for these particular staffers, without a reasonable and verifiable justification, and I haven't heard one, and I believe the department and personnel are acting out of unsubstantiated fear and a desire to turn our tax dollars into tactical equipment that no one but they are allowed to access, rather than employing creative and courageous strategies that could more directly impact children of residents.
There are 16 year old's in this town who pay their own h.s. sports fees from part-time jobs; you guys can buy your own armor. I understand that most of you guys have been on tax-payer supported pay-rolls for a long time, and you're unions have taught you to cheer when we give you something from our collective coffers, and complain when we don't. But consider taking some personal responsibility for your own safety in this one instance, it might actually be edifying for you, and increase your personal perception that you are paying your own way and protecting yourself, rather than have us protect you, out here in this wild, wild west called America.
Actually they would last more like 20 years since they would hardly ever be used. Hopefully.
ReplyDeleteRemember when the controversy was merely that the APD had a "tank"?
ReplyDeleteWhen, exactly, is this insanity going to end?
Larry, are you honestly suggesting that they would never train wearing them?
ReplyDeleteWould never even practice putting them on?
That's worse than not having them -- it's like the officer who has a gun but hasn't been to the range in years -- but expects to be proficient with it when needed. Ain't gonna happen....
Besides, I believe that Kelvar has a shelf life, it degrades when exposed to air and goes out of code in 5 years -- used or not.
I had a condom once ...
ReplyDeleteThat's what I Hear, Larry!
DeleteRadios cost $3000 each?!?
ReplyDeleteHow much is the AFD paying for hammers & toilet seats?
And they'd do a lot better on a van if they either went through the state purchase bid or "tacked onto" a UMass bid -- I'd be surprised if it cost them $20K.
Can SOMEONE, please, tell me whether McKay or Stromgren researched available grants for these items?? Can someone please explain what I am missing, when I can find ten fully rated bullet vests and helmets for a lot less than $17,500.00, and I never looked before yesterday? Are we tied in a way to some mega-industry that makes millions on vests, pepper spray, equipment for police dogs, batons, and gear that clearly identify you in big bold letters to the snipers as EMT or PROBATION, or can we go out independently and buy from whichever vendors we want?
ReplyDeleteThe price they used for the new van was state co-op pricing but they said they can probably beat that.
ReplyDeleteSo that leads me to believe they can buy from wherever they want.
And yes, I assume they will put in very large letters something showing they are the good guys (and gals).
But Did they research available grants for the items was my question.
ReplyDeleteState or Federal grants do not pay for police vests so I doubt they would fund FD vests.
ReplyDeleteThank you!
ReplyDeleteI don't have the time, but it would be a good idea to get one or two personnel members looking at what they did in Rockingham, NC, or what NC did, that allowed officials to use 10,500 from a state grant to buy vests for THIRTY EMT's. Putting someone on that for a week would pay for itself immediately, but of course that's a concept from the private sector where even tiny financial decisions truly mean life or death.
Funny thing is, EMT in big bold letters identifies you for the good guys AND the bad guys. I think I would go out without the vest or with one hidden under my regular clothes.
ReplyDeleteSpringing for a $500 vest (which is one of the very nice ones) with their own money every 5 years or so would be a good insurance policy for the EMT's, if they think they will be called upon to be in a mass shooting situation, and they also wouldn't be under the strict guidelines that keep vests in the ambulances, that say when they can and can't use them, etc., they could wear them under or over their clothes whenever they want, and the pride of personal ownership would ensure proper maintenance (unless there are rules against that?) There would be no red tape, and they could even keep them in their cars, in case they find themselves at a mass shooting at a mall and need to protect themse-- I mean, put the vest around a young girl.
ReplyDeleteProbably quicker to just carry a young girl to safety rather than taking the time to strap her into a vest while under firs.
ReplyDelete"fire"
ReplyDeleteFunny thing is, EMT in big bold letters identifies you for the good guys AND the bad guys.
ReplyDeleteI agree. EMT, FBI, DEA, CIA, NSA --- you're not being shot at by someone who is exactly rational, my guess is that the perp is more likely to see three big letters than to realize which three letters they are, let alone understand what they mean.
I think I would go out without the vest or with one hidden under my regular clothes.
I was surprised to learn that a .223 round routinely penetrates these vests -- .223 is the M-16 and hence, I presume, the AR-15. The AR-15 happens to be the gun most often used in school shootings.
Now while school shootings are so rare that all statistics are outliers, and while I think this whole thing is BS to begin with, the threat is from a .223 round which these vests are neither designed to nor likely to stop , so, like, what good are they???
"while under fire"?!?!?
ReplyDeleteI think we may have some PTSD mixing with our paranoia here.
This idea that our public safety personnel, cops, SWAT, etc., are mostly white, conservative, males with military training and wearing bullet proof vests and the only ones within a thousand square miles with access to the equipment we pay for is nonsense. In the coming weeks, we may see hundreds and hundreds of local, state, and federal civil servants diverge upon us, to protect the tax-payer's children from themselves(?), if the recommendations of the state's top cop, (gee, a white conservative male with military training,) are followed.
ReplyDeleteAnd you will see then you are wrong. They will send in mostly black female liberals with a notebook and pen in their hand and with social service backgrounds, and they are the ones with sole access to the tools that can protect our children. You live in a fantasy land if you think anyone is gearing up for conflict. What, do you think if Trump is elected, that he'll task all public safety personnel with helping to round up the Muslims for deportation?
I have 4 line item budgetary recommendations for parents of college-aged youth in the commonwealth, whose kids may be out in public in Amherst over the next couple of weekends. These are based on their need to be prepared, and also based rock solid in recent history and current trends...maybe file it under your family's "personal safety and emergency fund" and send them to your kids in a care package:
ReplyDeletea gas mask;
eye protection;
a crush proof phone that instantly streams to the cloud;
the number of a very, very good lawyer.
Or the parents could simply tell their little darlings to obey lawfully given orders from the police.
ReplyDeleteLarry, it is your attitude that is going to make AFD need those vests...
ReplyDeleteI'm quite serious, that attitude is dangerous.
Jaws2 opening scene: The attitude of the sheriff attracts the shark.
ReplyDeleteAmity Island resembles Amherst...
ReplyDeleteSomething I find concerning is that a veteran Amherst firefighter is online asking, after the request was made for our money, "serious question: do bullet-proof vests have a shelf life?"
ReplyDeleteI would think that the answer to that would have been known and bantered about among personnel and brass for a long time, during discussions and planning about equipment they'd like to purchase and use. I hope they fully educate themselves in their use and maintenance and how to inspect them for replacement if they get them! This expenditure, which is good for only five years, has OBVIOUSLY not been fully researched, and people who didn't do their homework on costs and how they function should not be granted their request. Come with something more of a reason for spending this money than "mass shootings", because that sounds like we're asking you why and you're answer is "9-11".
I used to say "Ed get the hell out of here", but now I get it, and I can't wait to get out of this place and join Ed in revealing how upside down and backwards this place is.
ReplyDeleteThere's a slew of public safety personnel reading this, a lot of questions raided, and the only one who even came close to doing something other than internal, private chatter about how excited they are is Jeremie. Why don't you guys get on here and make a valid case for us buying you vests, rather than just "I hope we get our ballistics"? It's a free country and you're allowed to, even if someone told you not to.
ReplyDeleteDoesn't Kevlar burn?
What happens if the perp is shooting tracer rounds?
Just asking.......
It would also be useful if AFD personnel would not make this an "us vs them" issue among our community members online, with remarks like "we also need a new ambulance every year, other departments ask for new buses after 100,000 miles." The town employee who made this comment doesn't live or pay taxes in town and really shouldn't be butting into our discussions about paying for vehicles to transport our children.
ReplyDeleteOh, Kurt...
DeleteThe comments on this thread have begun to boggle my mind. So here are a couple of things to think about. There have not been "ambulance drivers" in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts (or most other states) since the early 1970s. All of the members of the Amherst Fire Department are trained to the EMT-Intermediate (soon to be renamed EMT-Advanced)or paramedic level, with the majority falling into the latter category.
ReplyDeleteNow that we have that out of the way. We all know that mass shootings have been happening with an increased frequency in communities large and small across this country for as long as any of us can remember. Many of these incidents have unfortunately taken place in educational facilities such as those located in the Town of Amherst. Reviews of these incidents since Columbine in 1999 have shown that a delay in treatment caused by holding EMS providers in a staging area until police officers have completely secured the scene has resulted in the deaths of victims. Because of this there has been a paradigm shift on a national level with regard to EMS response to mass shootings. The current guidelines call for EMS providers to enter on the heels of the first police officers and begin treating victims as they are found. It is impractical to ask police officers to take on the role of paramedics as they will be occupied with the task of locating and subduing the shooter(s). To safely meet these guidelines additional equipment, including body armor and ballistic helmets, and training is required. Procurement of this equipment and training comes with an expense. Should an incident of this kind occur within our jurisdiction AFD paramedics will not able to reach the victims in a timely manner without the requested equipment. Asking paramedics to enter a tactical environment without the proper body armor is akin to asking firefighters to enter a burning structure without turnout gear and breathing apparatus. The bottom line is that while we all hope and pray that one of these incidents never happens in Amherst and these vests are never used, it would be irresponsible to fool ourselves into thinking that it could never happen. The fact is that the good people of Newtown CT. and Blacksburg VA (home of Virginia Tech.) probably thought it could never happen there until it did. The fire department is simply trying to be proactive and keep up with the current national practices in order to provide the best possible service. As I've said before, in the end it is up to the residents to decide how their tax dollars are spent. However it is important for them to understand the impact of those decisions and will and will not be possible.
Jeff Parr
We're more likely to have another moose threaten the safety of our staff and children than a gunman.
ReplyDeleteYou guys live in a culture that is myopic, and everyone and everything around you reinforces your fears, because you guys are thinking about danger constantly.
Even though they are under much greater threat than EMT's, do you think a school administrator has, even for one millisecond, considered asking tax-payers to buy them bullet-proof vests?
The cultures people work in and around determine their spending priorities, and who they want to give access to a town's collective resources to.
And I really wish members of the AFD would stop turning our town's budget considerations into an online "us vs them" war for funds.
Regarding the moose versus gun man statement: you better hope that's true. Do you think any of the slaughter sites in recent years didn't Think the same thing.
DeleteThe best national practices do not include spending 6 times as much per vest as other places.
ReplyDeleteMr. Parr, could you please advise as to how many man hours, total, we can expect EMT's/other staff within public safety to spend each year on proper use of the vests, how to take them on and off, maintenance, training with the vests in mock up scenarios, etc.
ReplyDeleteMr. Parr, have you personally done any research into costs for these items? If so, when did you begin your research? Did anyone in the department, that you know of, bring up the idea of seeking grants for these expenditures? Thank You.
ReplyDeleteKeep in mind that if Town Meeting approves $17,500 for a capital item and it ends up costing only $10,000 the $7,500 difference stays in that account and is later turned back to the General Fund or can be used for an item that closely matches the original items purchased.
ReplyDeleteIt's not like they can go out and buy a huge flat sceen TV for Central and North Station.
Or special Internet software to identify and locate Cowardly Anon Nitwits.
ReplyDeleteI have not researched the cost of body armor nor do I know what type or brand the department has looked into. What I do know is that there are a number of different types of body armor, each of which provides a different level of protection and comes with a different associated costs. In general, the higher level of protection desired (pistol round vs. rifle round), the greater the cost. My understanding is that the research you ask about has been done and that grants were looked into. However I can't give you anything more concrete as I was not one of those who performed that research.
ReplyDeleteJeff Parr
Or batons and pepper spray...that's next.
ReplyDeleteOK, thanks Jeff, my understanding now is that grants were looked into and we did not qualify for any. Thank you.
Do EMT's currently have access to equipment designed to subdue victims they are treating/transporting, ie. pepper spray, or another weapon, if they are feeling like the a victim is a threat to their personal safety?
ReplyDeleteActually PD carries batons and pepper spray and I have never heard it suggested they should pay for it with their own money.
ReplyDeleteAnd for many of the calls AFD is dispatched to APD is also dispatched to assist.
That's because a cops job involves subduing suspected criminals, those things are absolute parts of what they need to do their job effectively. EMT's jobs have nothing to do with getting shot at, in reality.
ReplyDeleteAs the chief said, "We live in a different world now."
ReplyDeleteAm I a scumbag because I don't want to give them everything they ask for?
ReplyDeleteWell in this particular case, yes.
ReplyDeleteWhen did an EMT turrn into a combat job???
DeleteIt is a sad commentary on our times that people object to protection for those that rush to our aid.
ReplyDeleteYep. Wish I could say I was sagacious enough to have that in mind when I came up with that headline.
ReplyDelete"...additional equipment, including body armor and ballistic helmets, and training is required. Procurement of this equipment and training comes with an expense..."
ReplyDeleteHmmmm....
INCLUDING.....
"Keep in mind that if Town Meeting approves $17,500 for a capital item and it ends up costing only $10,000 the $7,500 difference ... can be used for an item that closely matches the original items purchased."
What ELSE is the AFD purchasing? Glocks?
And how many man-hours are being tied up in this foolishness?
Larry, when your house burns down because the overtime budget got chewed up with this foolishness, you might feel differently.
And speaking of fueling the paranoia,
ReplyDeleteIT WASN'T EVEN A REAL GUN AT UMASS!!!
http://www.metro.us/boston/suspect-used-bb-gun-in-umass-amherst-robbery-assault-reports/zsJpby---P5yTffGtkHU/
I was wondering why the UMPD charged "Dangerous Weapon" rather than "Deadly Weapon" as a handgun would sorta meet the latter criteria
And AFD, you want to worry about a realistic mass-casualty incident, worry about the July 4th fireworks. Worry about something along the lines of Coconut Grove and a mass exodus from the field -- maybe even from a sudden torrential downpour.
People trampled by the exit gate could happen -- a Spetsnaz unit shooting at you, not so likely....
By the same token, Anon 8:20, do you think that any of the people who lost someone due to medical malpractice expected to? Should we shut down the AFD because some paramedic, somewhere else, was incompetent?
ReplyDeleteMy thoughts and prayers go out to the EMT's who work in the Madison School District. It must have been terrifying. They're so brave...let's give them whatever they ask for to protect their community.
ReplyDeleteanother gun incident, again in a school. who are we giving access to the ballistics to?
ReplyDeletemy dear, very brave auntie, on her mother being shot dead and her father being jailed by nazis: but that only happened once, i have to do taxes every year.
(she likes taxes she just hates doing them with my uncle.)
I wonder if anyone has ever considered, when the $%#! is going down, tweets about guns are flying, threats are being phoned in, what that might be like for children and spouses of teachers and administrators. I am not aware of anyone checking in on some folks, on their kids, to ask if they're ok, if they need anything, during those times. If they're feelin' brave. Ever, ever, ever. Never been mentioned. Nothin'. And I know.
There are a lot of very brave people who need what it takes to run to the rescue and give kids what they need...but we don't give the resources to everyone who needs them, and I've already detailed who we give the to.
You should probably lay off the coffee this late in the day.
ReplyDeleteIf how brave you are, and if you're priority is to help people in dire need, should determine whether or not we should even question your budget requests, then there are some pretty brave young social workers who work in the violent public schools, no protection, day in day out, so let's give them whatever they need, to spend as they see fit.
ReplyDeleteMaybe the EMT's won't need to be rushing to so many incidents.
Treat students a bit more humanely and you won't be having these incidents
ReplyDeleteTake away a person's humanity and they've got nothing to lose, that was my point in bringing up Abu Grhaib and the effect it has had/will continue to have.
ReplyDeleteThe best deterrent against the kid who is so desperate and on the edge that he shows up to school to injure people, is a friendly face at the door as he's walking into school most days, saying something like, "Hey buddy, do you have a minute at lunch today? I know a kid who's joining a club that I think you might be interested in, too."
Do members of the AFD pay for their own casual wear/office attire? Do firefighters pay for their own decorative uniforms to attend colleague's memorial services, march in parades, etc,. or is that entirely a union expense?
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure what you mean by "casual wear" and "office attire". Members are purchace and maintain thier uniforms, both day to day work uniforms and Class A dress unoforms, using an annual uniform allowance. The department's rules and regulations require that members have most of these items, including the full dress uniform. Protective clothing and equipment (turnout gear, helmets, protective eye wear, etc.) are provided by the department. I hope this answers your question.
DeleteJeff Parr
In that case, the vests should be provided by the department since they are protective gear.
DeleteI really feel bad for Ed's state of mind. I guess his little lobster thingy isn't working out. I'll keep praying for your soul and sanity Ed.
ReplyDeleteBy casual wear and office attire I mean the clothing the brass wears to meetings with town, gown, and school officials, or the clothes they wear when they have a full day in the office: light v-neck sweaters with logos, slacks, ball caps with logos, wind-breakers, comfortable shoes, so on. Clothes that we all wear to our jobs or meetings when we want to look professional but are assuming a physically light capacity of work, and want to project a respectful yet informal decorum. I'm sorry if I was speaking some other language.
ReplyDeleteWho funds the annual uniform allowance and how much is it?
Seriously, Kurt? With the amount of money your wife makes, this is what concerns you about our towns budget? Better look into APD's uniform allowance while you're at it.
DeleteWe will do well regarding our budget if we look most carefully at who has access to things, the overwhelming majority of our families don't, that come from our tax dollars: overtime pay, clothing, other gear to protect from weather, transportation vehicles, utility vehicles, fuel, offensive and defensive weaponry, etc., and see if there are any leaks or any that are not particular or essential to the performance of the job. For example we have not needed to provide suits to our elementary school principals in order for them to do top-notch jobs and for people to look at them with respect.
ReplyDeleteFuel/Vehicle/Transportation use is classic, imagine if you didn't have to pay for those expenses from your personal budget most days. And it's very important to consider, in a big emergency, how will those resources be used and by whom.
The overwhelming majority of people who have access to government-procured clothing and fuel and transportation and other "things" in this town are white men who work for the DPW, AFD, APD, and they don't look like their town and the children growing up in it much at all anymore. (I often see names and faces being hired within the APD that are more reflective of the town's make-up.)
I've noticed that the best way to get some of these guys to respond to valid questions is to mis-state their job title or call their clothes the wrong name.
ReplyDeleteThe Police and the AFD have completely different roles and we shouldn't keep comparing what one department needs to what another department needs. Why a cop needs a uniform doesn't need to be explained to me. And I understand why they need really warm gloves on some days, because we all know what it's like to be standing outside and it's cold, so I support that purchase.
ReplyDeleteThe guys and gals in the AFD and the APD work together a lot and so they exist in the same culture socially, politically, so it's not unusual that they would over time come to support each other over other departments when it comes to buying things they need or want. Maybe they even support each other during times of town-wide crisis more than they do personnel in other departments, I don't know.
But of course a lot of the people within the departments supporting other departments and their purchases don't even pay taxes here, so we shouldn't be considering their opinions as heavily as they ask us to all the time, with their, frankly, pseudo-expertise: the conversation that has taken place online regarding the potential purchase of serious and potentially life-saving equipment, since it was announced, looks like an excited, on-the-fly, "let's figure out the details of this stuff together" banter, whereas I would have expected more knowledge of the matter among personnel and some more formal presentation from AFD and EMT personnel maybe, explaining to us that you're so serious about these things that you know more than anyone in town about them. I'm not even certain the the EMT's all knew the request would be made. And there was nothing leading up to this so no community members could be prepared to offer public comment and opinion at the meeting it was requested at.
If school administration proposed some purchases or methods that no staff seemed to have any knowledge about at all, or that it was even a consideration, that the residents didn't know was coming, and that personnel immediately needed people from other places and other departments to get online and explain to them what the simple-to-find-online details of these requested items are..... I'm not sure, something really concerning about that.
Clearly Kurt is back. He loves to ask AFD members to "clarify." And hes the only pwrson in Amherst that is stupid enough to actually believe that the superintendants.job is as dangerous as that of a police officer or firefighter. And Ed....you and Kurt need serious therapy and medication.
ReplyDeleteA school bus driver was threatened today in Springfield by a parent who stepped onto his bus with a gun to shoot him. The EMT's were miles away, probably securely strapping on on their vests. I don't need to hear anymore about how an EMT's job is as dangerous as a school employees. For chrissake, do I need to start posting the statistics? Do you read the news?
ReplyDeleteMost people agree with what has been written here in criticism of public safety spending. Yesterday I saw little girls walking off their bus from school shivering and hiding her hands from the cold, past a fully, government-clothed (when we do that to a little girl we call it welfare) man with super-warm gloves who get's paid by our taxes. That's why there's only one or two feeble attempts to discredit the critical statements with name-calling, like "stupid", and that people who have more in-depth abilities to look at aspects of spending and protocol need "therapy".
No valid, compelling argument exists currently in this town for buying the EMT's vests. There are a lot of very valid questions here that have been left unanswered. No other department would be granted that kind of permission to not do their homework around big purchases if real questions went unanswered. Believe me, this is being discussed by people who have been around here for a long time, and a lot of people don't think this is crazy at all, they get it and these are expressions of frustrations that have existed for a long time among some town employees.
And Ed's more of an American and a Patriot than any of you.
Do the tax-payers of Amherst ever incur any food or meal expenses related to APD, AFD, DPW?
I would say that if a superintendent needs to stand out in the open next to grown men who are in situations where they are concerned enough that they need a bullet resistant vest, then the superintendent needs one too or no one does.
ReplyDeleteOr maybe you mean because the cops are under siege by Black Lives Matter?
Something funny is going on and that's what the silence you're hearing is.
ReplyDeleteIf a situation arises where AFD personnel have donned bullet proof vests I can assure you APD would not let the Superintendent anywhere near the scene.
ReplyDeleteLast year for instance she was kept back a safe distance from a visiting moose.
I really feel bad for Ed's state of mind. I guess his little lobster thingy isn't working out
ReplyDeleteIt's a sad day in America when we anonymously ridicule people who bravely embark on ventures to fend for themselves in the private sector.
on the same day that children on a bus and the driver were threatened by a man wielding a gun in western ma, this video was released of what happens to some kids in their schools:
ReplyDeletehttp://news.yahoo.com/school-officer-video-prompts-calls-reform-151551202.html;_ylt=A0LEV7hGzNlWtR0AVlYPxQt.;_ylu=X3oDMTByMjB0aG5zBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzYw--
We don't know the facts, and father does not necessarily mean "custodial parent", but if I'd had two children taken off my bus by the police, I'd be asking the cops to either have a cruiser follow me for the rest of the run and/or take the sister home. You (driver) are responsible for the girl until you get her to her parent(s), who are not going to be happy with you, why provoke things?
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, I once drove a school bus.
I'm going to go one step further: why provoke -- or exacerbate -- things???
ReplyDeleteIt's not cowardice to put your professional responsibilities before your ego.
It's not cowardice to put the good of the children WHOM TOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR ahead of your machismo.
Kurts not only back but clearly also using whatever substance it is that makes him such an angry lunatic.
ReplyDelete